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[...] I found a summary of our discussion. [...]
Mariana Bonfim on August 8th, 2009 8:10 pmLOL
afghanatheist on August 9th, 2009 10:46 amZing!
cathy on August 12th, 2009 10:58 amtoo true.
Anonymous on September 19th, 2009 10:46 pmthat is 100% true o.o
Metatheorist on September 20th, 2009 8:03 amThe psychology behind it is that when somebody looks thru your argument thread and see that the opponent has not been able to post a rebuttal to you once again, then that means you had the last word about the argument. It may also be because the other party found better things to do, or simply didnt find the time to spend on this pursuit.
krash on October 12th, 2009 7:58 pm…I’ve had tons of people admit they were wrong in arguments online.
I’ve also admitted I was wrong, and have seen it happen with other people.
Funny though.
brian on October 12th, 2009 8:37 pmDear Krash- you are WRONG! You have NEVER done that!
(see what I did there?)
Rob on October 21st, 2009 9:00 pmI’ve admitted I was wrong on the internet before. I’ve also gotten other people to admit that they are wrong.
A few times I would argue with someone and we would respectfully agree to disagree.
Not everyone on the internet is a complete tool.
pete on November 26th, 2009 9:09 pmYES they are! Everyone is, depending how you look at it. You’re a tool rob because you took the time out of your day to ruin this funny joke. Maybe YOU need a hug. I know I do.
Dobschat » Diskussionen im Internet on December 5th, 2009 7:17 pm[...] Diskussionen im Internet 6. Dezember 2009 Kein KommentarArguing on the Internet – so und nicht anders ist es…(via The Daily What)Das könnte Dich auch interessieren:Ein [...]
Gilly on December 6th, 2009 8:00 amHaha, wirklich gut getroffen
smatch on December 6th, 2009 8:16 pmLOL. but if we dont point out the ignorance… WHO WILL?!?!?! THEY NEED TO KNOW THE PICTURES HAVE BEEN SHOOOOOOOOP’d!!!!
oh and lol @metatheorist… you are everything this comment is making fun of…. by the by….
Adam on January 8th, 2010 4:27 pmSo *not* true.
First off, I don’t see more people conceding arguments offline than online.
Second, it’s not actually possible to win or beat someone at an argument, since arguments aren’t competitions. Getting someone to concede a point is just that: getting someone to concede a point, not an indication of victory. The notions of victory and defeat are irrelevant to argumentation.
brian on January 8th, 2010 10:01 pmActually, Adam, people win/ lose arguments all the time in real life and they typically refer to it as such.
I recommend getting used to this notion or one day you’ll find yourself, say, explaining to your future ex-wife that while YES, you MAY or may not have forgotten to pick up her mother at the airport in the dead of winter, but consenting to this fact would not be an indication of victory for her as notions of victory and defeat are irrelevant to argumentation.
Adam on January 9th, 2010 6:58 amWell, brian, it looks like all you’ve done here is counter my premise without providing any valid arguments to support yourself, and the one about people typically using the notion of winning an argument “all the time” in real life is an argumentum ad populum fallacy. People used to think the earth is flat, we know how that turned out; and the majority of the population in the US still think evolution is false, I’ll be damned if I have to get used to the notion. If everyone had to get used to the majority’s conception of things, we’d still be in the stone age.
No, there is no winning and losing an argument; and the irrelevancy of your example about picking up your wife’s mother leads me to think that you made it deliberately ambiguous. There’s no argument in having to explain that you forgot something, as you’re not contradicting your opponent’s position but merely being informational.
brian on January 9th, 2010 1:18 pmSo Adam, when you wrote that you “don’t see more people conceding arguments offline than online” how was that any less ad populum than my similarly anecdotal claim that people openly win or lose arguments in real life all the time?
I’m not sure what the specific latin translation is for “WHOOSH”, but I’ll try and explain my little joke. (Because, as everyone knows, explaining jokes just makes them more hilarious and enjoyable for all parties.) But there I go, getting all ad populum again.
OK…
Let’s say Sally asks her husband Dick to pick up her mom at the airport the following week. Dick agrees. The day of her mom’s arrival, Dick forgets, as he was busy playing cards with his pals. Mom has to take a taxi and Sally gets P-O’d. Dick finally comes home and Sally begins tearing him a well-deserved new one. Dick gets defensive, starts arguing why it’s not his fault: Sally should have reminded him, the taxis aren’t THAT sticky, etc.
Dick finally realizes he’s screwed and in lieu of spending the rest of his days on the couch, concedes her point. Dick was clearly wrong and has, by any definition, LOST this argument.
They weren’t having an academic debate, attempting to disprove a scientific theory or even following Robert’s Rules of Order- they were arguing in the everyday sense of the word.
I only hope this discussion has helped make my little cartoon about the talking rabbit that much more hilarious for you.
Adam on January 9th, 2010 4:15 pmBrian,
“So Adam, when you wrote that you “don’t see more people conceding arguments offline than online” how was that any less ad populum than my similarly anecdotal claim that people openly win or lose arguments in real life all the time?”
From this paragraph I gather that you may not know what argumentum ad populum actually entails, so I’ll try to clarify: it’s an argument of the form “many, most or all people use and/or believe a given notion, therefore it’s true.” If I understand your position correctly, you’re suggesting that since people “typically” refer to conceding and getting the opponent to concede an argument “all the time” as losing and winning respectively, then that’s—in truth—what it is. This screams ad populum.
However, how you attributed this to my observation that people concede about as much arguments online as offline, is beyond me. The observation makes no reference to what many, most or all people hold true, and so *cannot* be an argumentum ad populum. Its aim was simply to point out that the second frame in your cartoon misses the mark, since it’s obviously wrong about the idea that no one’s ever admitted they were wrong on the Internet (I see it happening all the time, and that’s only me). In fact, your cartoon misses the mark completely, because—other than having an actual person in front of you—there’s no difference between arguing online and offline. Even what the 3rd and 4th frames describe happens in real-life as well.
Additionally, your claim that people win or lose arguments all the time is circular reasoning, because it already assumes that it’s possible to win or lose arguments. Your argument is basically the following: People win or lose arguments all the time, therefore people *can* win or lose arguments. See a logical problem there?
As for your… now extended little story, which wasn’t really necessary; it’s nice and all, but ultimately all you’re doing with it is repeat your premise that victory or defeat exist in argumentation, with nothing to support it. You haven’t provided any link between them, any evidence that getting your opponent to concede the argument implies winning it, leaving this notion is non-sequitur status.
As for “arguing in the everyday sense of the word”; not that I see a distinction between that and what you call an “academic debate” that’s significant to this discussion, but the aforementioned relation still doesn’t exist. Let’s not delve into a debate of semantics though, I know the definitions of arguing and you can get yours on Google.
Adam on January 9th, 2010 4:33 pmOh and by the way, I’ve looked into definitions of “wrong”, “argument” and even “concede” and couldn’t find any mention of winning or losing. I’m starting to think that this sentence: “Dick was clearly wrong and has, by any definition, LOST this argument.” was a bluff.
brian on January 9th, 2010 9:56 pmThis is getting ridiculous, while at the same time illustrating the point of my little joke…
As to the fact that you don’t think people can win or lose arguments, you’re getting way too hung up on semantics. The term “win an argument” is very much in the vernacular. Whether or not you think this is some sort of fallacious reasoning, it’s a well used and understood term used by (ad populum alert!) most people.
Case in point, Google “win an argument” and you get 3,400,000 results. “Concede an argument” on the other hand comes in at a relatively paltry 71,600 results. People in real life don’t typically say “concede an argument”. Ask around. “Concede” may be factual and technically correct, but it’s also awkward and clinical. And when your writing dialogue for an internet surfing rabbit, you try and make it sound natural and as much in his voice as possible. Above all, it is representative of one man’s (or by proxy, rabbit’s) point of view.
There very well may be a way to write a more semantically and factually correct cartoon about this very subject that is both irrefutably true and pants-wettingly hilarious but I’ll be damned if I know how. If you’d like to take a stab at it, Adam, I’d love to see the results.
Adam on January 10th, 2010 11:02 amI see it’s hard for you to let go of the idea that popular use makes something correct, since you are still repeating this fallacy. Yes, I know I can Google for incorrect notions and misconceptions and find that some are very popular or even of standard use (mainly in US-based websites; you’d be surprised how this is much less prevalent in some other languages, notably French.) For example, if you Google any commonly used statement properly containing the word “its”, you may find more results where the word is incorrectly spelled “it’s.”
If anyone is making this about semantics, you are. I am making this about logic. Winning implies success and losing implies failure, all of which imply *closure*—by any definition. That’s just it; an argument is an exchange of ideas, meant for the participants to acknowledge one another’s different positions on a given premise—it *has* no closure: If your opponent concedes or retires, you still don’t know that you were right and they were wrong, or that you weren’t both wrong. The argument itself is still in motion and always will be, as there’s no definite conclusion to it, just different participants and new ideas. There’s no success, no failure; nothing substantial to gain from your opponent’s concession and nothing substantial for them to lose. If anything, all participants are successful as long as the discussion advances, since they’re gaining knowledge; they’re just not successful *at* the argument.
So as you can see, this isn’t a matter of semantics; the concept of victory, regardless of definition, is logically incompatible with the indefinite process that is argumentation. But let’s anecdotally assume for a second that it isn’t, that you’re correct, and that getting your opponent’s concession implies your victory and their defeat:
- Why would your opponent ever openly concede an argument, if it means failing or losing? No sane person wants to fail or lose. Is everyone who’s ever conceded an argument (which is probably just about every human being who could ever talk) this irrational?
- If your opponent suddenly changes his position in favor of yours but refuses to ever let anyone know about it, either retiring from the debate without a word or continuing it with bogus arguments, do you still win? But how can you win if you don’t know that you won, and never will? It’s self-contradictory. Also, what exactly does he lose? He gained a new viewpoint and used it to update his frame of mind; that’s almost the opposite of losing.
See the inherent logical inconsistencies your idea involves?
Besides, ask around, and you may find that those who assign the notion of victory to said ‘closure’ of an argument do not, as you seem to suggest, use it as a shorter and more ‘natural’ alternative to “getting the opponent to concede an argument,” but rather, they use it as an emotional response to a vaguely interpreted effect their final argument had on their opponent, and do so with the same definition of the word as they would typically use to describe the result of a basketball game—the literal one. Can you honestly tell me that “I won the argument because they admitted they were wrong” doesn’t sound ridiculous to you? Let alone “because they stopped replying.”
Case in point, your “case in point” is invalid: Your conclusion from comparing those Google results is a confirmation bias, since you’re pitting the notion of “winning an argument” against the false-alternative of “getting to concede an argument” and not taking into account other alternatives, such as the lack of mention at all of closure or any notion of achievement in an argument. You’ll find, by looking around, that an argumentative discussion typically doesn’t end with someone declaring victory or success, defeat or failure of their opponent, or any sort of closure, regardless of whether this opponent conceded or retired from the argument. There is, then, no evidence that most people even consider it as such. Since the *absence* of a comment isn’t something you can Google, your way of comparing the popularity of these different notions is flawed. You’re making the double logical error of concluding something to be true because other people say it is and because you’re unable or refuse to think of non-superficial alternatives.
I won’t take a stab at your cartoon. Not only because I have no interest in making comic strips, not only because—as I’ve previously demonstrated—the problem isn’t semantics, but also because the subliminal concept it’s all based on has comical value only for the naive minds who think arguments magically becomes pointless (let alone, significantly different) when you have them online. To me, this cartoon is just a huge non-sequitur.
brian on January 11th, 2010 12:06 amIf it needs saying I will. This is a fictional cartoon. A joke. It’s not a master’s thesis. It’s not a textbook. It requires no more accuracy or need to be a universal truth as a stand up comic’s one liner. It’s primary goal is to be funny by way of exaggeration, hyperbole, satire or whatever works to elicit a laugh.
You may disagree with the premise, find fault in the logic, or decide your own experience differs. But I’m afraid that simply doesn’t matter. You might as well take issue with the factual accuracy of a dirty limerick.
(I can only imagine how you reacted when you first heard about the man from Nantucket, given that there was no factual evidence to indicate such a man ever existed, let alone that he was so blessed that he would have been immortalized as such.)
My only real disappointment is that you didn’t find the comic funny. But if there IS a universal truth it’s that you can’t please everyone.
And while you claim lack of interest, I’d still love to read your version of an original narrative joke or cartoon. Heck, tell me how you think THIS cartoon should have played out. Keep the dialogue in first panel intact if you’d like but change the rest, keeping in mind your take on the subject and that it should be funny, too. As you observed yourself, even naive minds can do it. How long could it take you?
And just to prove it’s not just me and my illiterate brethren that use it, here’s a few sources I found that reference the term “win an argument” in their definitions of “argument” and “win”. Even the good folks at Macmillan seem to think it’s OK.
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/argument
Kurt on January 12th, 2010 12:16 pmhttp://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/win
http://grammar.about.com/od/ab/g/argmterm.htm
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/win
Adam, I am certain, given your grand and gloroius command of the English language and All aspects of mundane and venacular usage of such that you have heard the phrase “BEATING A DEAD HORSE” or even “LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE”. Well If you have not let me explain the refferences. First your seeming need to rebutt every comment makes the phrase “BEATING A DEAD HORSE” relevent in that you have simply been repeating your argument that arguments are not to be won or lost in a vain attempt to “WIN” the argument by quantity of words heaped upon your oppentent… in this case that would be Brian, the author and artist of the cartoon in question… much like the rabbit illustrated in the cartoon in question. While this is a common tactic and often very effective… as was pointed out in the cartoon itself… it is a weak offensive manuver in a battle of words. Now on to the phrase “LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE.” Since the point you put forth so voluniously is that there is no wining or loosing to any given argument then there is no point in coninuing to attempt convincing your opponent in the argument that he… in this case that would be Brian the author and artist of the cartoon in question… is incorrect in his stance that an argument can be won or lost. Therefore you might be well advised to take your own point into concideration and let go of the argument rather than continuing to attempt that which is, in your own point, impossible… The winning of an argument. Because, you see in beating this parciculat dead horse you have already lost the argument. Now you would be well advised to “LET SLEEPING DOGS LIE” by droping your feeble attempt to convince Brain that he can not win the argument under the weight of your copious vocabulary.
Teddytime on March 23rd, 2010 4:58 amI AM WINNAZ!!!!!! WINNA WINNA CHICKEN DINNA!!!!!!!!!
Ben10 on March 23rd, 2010 3:43 pmLOL…. That was a trolling argument right, Icing on the cake of the cartoon?? If not, I hold little hope for humanity…. Still giggling though :>
Ben10 on March 23rd, 2010 3:52 pmSeriously though… a cartoon about internet arguments, followed by an internet argument about whether or not it is theoretically possible to win an argument…. It’s either comic genius or I’m going to have to rethink my views on whether there is a god! Cheers for the chucks either way, the internet wouldn’t be half as fun without the arguments.
jonc on April 11th, 2010 4:54 amI love the little pyramid guy with glasses on your site, nice touch!